Chinese Pod Revisited
July 1st, 2006 by MarkChinese Pod has changed quite a bit in the last two and a half months. Some new features have been added, there are many new podcasts, the quality of the podcasts has improved, and there have been several minor but important changes in the lessons since the last time I wrote about them.
Since my initial review of Chinese Pod, I’ve received more email related to that one review than any other article I’ve written. Several Chinese students appreciated my perspective, and expressed similar feelings I had about Chinese Pod. On the other hand, I also received more angry emails regarding the review than I had ever previously seen in my life. After suffering insults about my site, insults about myself, insults about my family, and even one email that included vague threats against me, it became very clear to me that there are some CPod fanatics out there.
That’s not why I’m re-reviewing the service, though. I’m re-reviewing it because it has improved dramatically in the last two months. When I first took a close look at Chinese Pod, there were quite a few things that frustrated me. Though the service was unquestionably the best of its kind, it still didn’t offer very much value to me. Now, some of the things I didn’t like at that time have been changed, and none of the things I did like are missing. First, I’ll review the newest podcast from each category, and then I’ll talk about general improvements I’ve seen in the lessons. All the podcasts are free for anyone to listen to or download.
Newbie Pod #95 – Finding A Seat
Much as its name suggests, Finding a Seat teaches new students how to ask if a seat is free and how to ask if they may sit there. At the very beginning of the podcast, Ken and Jenny explain that it’s a beginner’s level lesson and that there are also more advanced lessons, etc… However, they only spent a minute on it. They bantered back and forth a bit about how the material taught in the lesson was important, and when it could be used- a good idea for a beginners lesson, in my opinion. The dialoge was very short. Here it is, in its entirety:
這裡有人坐嗎?
Is anybody sitting here?
沒有.
No.
我可以坐嗎?
Is it ok if I sit here?
當然可以.
Of course it is.
They went over the dialogue a few times, with Jenny reading the Chinese, and Ken translating into English. After that, they broke it down into each individual word and explained the literal meaning of each. Truth be told, it was a little boring to me to listen to such a short dialogue being taught for 10 minutes. So, I ran it by a friend who’s barely studied any Chinese before. He loved it, and thought it was interesting. One other thing I noticed, is that Ken’s Chinese sounds much better. There wasn’t anything about it that detracted from the lesson? Did he have a run-in with the tone police?
Elementary Pod #38 – He’s boring
This podcast was similar to Finding A Seat in terms of the amount of English support used, but the dialogue was quite a bit more substantial. In the dialogue, Jenny explains to a friend how she doesn’t want to have dinner at her neighbor’s place because he’s boring and because his wife’s a bad cook! It’s definitely a more interesting topic than finding a seat, if you ask me! They went over the vocabulary several times and explained some basic grammar. It was well presented, and pretty useful stuff.
Intermediate Pod #48 – Girly Talk
The best introduction for this podcast is the one on Chinese Pod: “Combine Alicia Silverstone with Wang Faye and you will start to understand the basis of today’s show.” The difference between this lesson and the intermediate lesson I reviewed last time was nothing less than jaw-dropping. They cut past the English intros and marketing related stuff and switched into Chinese in ten seconds. From there out, it was interesting, easy to understand, and educational. I learned a couple of phrases from it, I got more practice hearing Chinese at the right level for my needs, and it was fun! As an intermediate student myself, this is exactly the kind of listening practice I needed. I highly recommend this pod. Oh, yeah. John’s Chinese is really good. Readers of my blog probably all knew that already, but it still had to be said.
Upper-Intermediate Pod #4 – Bargaining
Ahh… bargaining. If there’s one part of the “China experience” I feel like I’ve missed out by living in Taiwan, it’s the bargaining. I can only imagine all the interesting things that foreigners living on the mainland experience in the course of buying their daily necessities, but this podcast gives me some sort of idea. I also found this pod interesting and educational. Jenny and John explained quite a few vocab items, such as 殺價 (”kill” the price), 吹牛, 一分錢一分貨 (you get what you pay for), as well as others.
Advanced Pod #20 – Studying Abroad
Jenny and Aggie discuss what it’s like for Chinese students who study abroad. Since it’s a topic that I’ve heard discussed so many times, I don’t have a lot to say about it. As I’d hoped it would be, the lesson was completely in Chinese. I could follow it, and I suppose it was good listening practice. I have to admit I feel a little disappointed that it wasn’t any harder, though. To be honest, it seems like it wasn’t really noticeably harder than the Bargaining lesson was. It’s fine for me now, but I’m worried that after my Chinese improves a bit more, there won’t be much for me to listen to. Who knows, though. Maybe I’ll be able to understand normal TV shows by the time that happens.
Some general thoughts about Chinese Pod
The more I think about it, the more I think Chinese Pod’s biggest strong point is simply that they can and often do make changes based upon suggestions users make. Textbook publishers rarely make any changes based on feedback from students who have used it. Usually, feedback is taken indirectly from instructors, and it takes years to incorporate suggestions into the next edition of a book. A podcaster, on the other hand, is making new material continuously, and can make changes to it at any time. For all I know, some of the improvements I see have been made in response to my previous review, or in response to feedback from other people with similar Chinese learning goals.
That said, I still wouldn’t recommend that any of my friends stop attending Chinese classes and abandon them in favor of listening to podcasts. Podcasts are useful, and convenient, but nothing replaces having a teacher who can tell you what you need to work on. I have met people who have studied at ICLP, and gone from having minimal Chinese skills to speaking better than I do and being able to read newspapers pretty well within a single year. The material on CPod isn’t enough to do that… yet. Still, I can’t help but recommend it. The free version has become a great supplementary source for listening materials and it’s only getting better. The paid version is even better, but that will have to wait for another review.
Improvements over the last couple of months:
- The selection of podcasts is growing quickly.
- The hosts’ Chinese sounds much better.
- The new lessons are really interesting.
- There’s a lot of English support at the low levels, but the lessons are almost completely in Chinese at the higher levels.
- Now there’s grammar instruction for those who want it.
- There are a lot of new features.
Things that could still improve:
- The classical Chinese music is still there all the time (though it does seem less obtrusive).
- Nobody uses Chinese names in the lessons- learning Chinese names is difficult for foreigners who study Chinese but it’s still an important part of learning the language.
- It would still be nice to see more variety in the hosts. There aren’t any male Chinese hosts, and everyone on the show has a southern accent.
Rating: 4/5
Notes: I know Chinese Pod is usually written as one word with Java-style inner caps, i.e., ChinesePod. The title bar of their main page splits it into two words, though, and as I prefer to avoid using inner caps, I do the same.
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July 1st, 2006 at 6:24 pm
This is a great review and much of what you say I’ll be discussing with my partners as we develop the Korean Podcast site. Our target launch is early September.
July 1st, 2006 at 8:58 pm
good review; I agree with all of your points, especially a male native speaker as a model so laowai guys will stop sounding like girls, and a few northern teachers.
I don’t listen to ChinesePod that much, but it does seem the hosts are not using English so much. I listened to an advanced lesson a few months back and quickly cut bait b/c at least half was in English.
Now if they just do a visa interview lesson I’m all set.
To EFL Geek above, I for one, will want to know when you get KoreanPod going.
July 1st, 2006 at 9:15 pm
Prince Roy,
There hasn’t been any English in the advanced show for a while now.
July 1st, 2006 at 9:29 pm
OK, I went back and actually listened to a random lesson, and I’d like to modify my comments a bit. I agree with most of what you write, but not all. I still don’t like the presenters’ Mandarin all that much, Some of it has to do with my northern bias; I freely admit it. But also, at least in the studio conversations (not so much the dialogues) they sound stilted. In other words, they don’t really sound like Chinese do speaking to each other. Their enunciation is slow and exaggerated, even at the advanced level. It doesn’t sound that natural to me. It’s hard for me to listen to a complete lesson in one go at any level b/c of that.
I do agree they have improved though. The addition of John is a step up. Not only is he an actual linguistics person, but as you say, his Chinese is good enough so that the listener isn’t focused on the fact that a foreigner is there. Plus, he can’t help but provide motivation to others.
I’m looking forward to your analysis of the paid service, which I still think is expensive, at least for students. My overall rating of teh free service would be 3+/5.
July 1st, 2006 at 11:14 pm
PR, it’s way better now. Believe me, I can’t stand having language lesson time wasted by teachers who want to talk in English when it’s not necessary. That, plus the marketing stuff, is what made CPod unpalatable for me the first time.
Instead of just listening to a random lesson, try a new one (anything from the last couple of weeks). The advanced lessons are all Chinese, and the intermediate ones are mostly Chinese, too. Give it another try, but make sure you’re listening to the newer stuff.
July 1st, 2006 at 11:47 pm
PR,
I think part of the issue might be: what is an advanced lesson? If your answer is that an advanced lesson is pretty much the same as a regular Chinese broadcast meant for Chinese people, then what’s the point of offering it to begin with? Listeners can just go to the regular Chinese broadcast.
I was the one that had to figure out what an advanced lesson should be, and my answer is that an advanced lesson on ChinesePod should still be serving as a bridge between “lessons” and full-on native media.
Granted, our advanced lessons are still not perfect, but if you understand what we’re aiming for, you might appreciate them more. Once you can handle regular native broadcasts, you don’t need ChinesePod.
July 2nd, 2006 at 12:28 am
MArk,
Also, a new ChinesePod feature you might like is the new Schedule, powered by Google Calendar. Check it out.
July 2nd, 2006 at 2:38 am
Hi Mark,
You’re a brave man, willing to face the wrath of the ChinesePod Red Guards by doing another review. I took your advice and listened to portions of the most recent lessons. I don’t find my evaluation has changed all that much-I still give it a 3+/5. As before, I agree that it has improved, and I appreciate the fact they went and hired someone with a linguistics background (JP) b/c this shows they’re committed to improving the product and are serious about this endeavor. I think his input is probably responsible for a lot of the improvement.
ChinesePod is light years beyond how I studied Chinese when I was an undergrad: I still remember how I’d string up a short wave antenna out of my bedroom window in Oregon so I could listen to Mainland broadcasts. The topics on ChinesePod are all current, though a bit ’safe’. That’s probably more a reflection of the present day Mainalnd reality I guess. My hat’s off to them for coming up with the number of topics they do considering how many are off limits.
Still, my previous concerns stand. The lack of a native Chinese male viewpoint is glaring. I hope they address this, if nothing more than as not to give any more credence than necessary to the stereotype that Chinese-Western interaction is a Chinese female/Western male thing. Even at the intermediate level, some structured guy talk between say JP and a Chinese fellow would be quite beneficial. At the advanced level, it would be useful for students to observe how two native male speakers engage in discourse. How men express themselves, the language they use, these vary somewhat from women in every culture/language and Chinese is no exception.
I still find the flow of discourse in the studio conversations somewhat stilted and unnatural, more so at the lower levels, and more subtle in the advanced lessons. It’s hard for me to quantify exactly what I mean here, especially for the advanced podcasts, but I definitely sense it. I do understand that advanced lessons should act as a bridge to native media, but I wonder if it is possible to do that and still sound less affected. Maybe there really is nothing to be done. One thing they could do though, at the advanced level, is use Chinese to explain the vocabulary, rather than English. I think English is ok at the basic and intermediate level, but they should wean the students off that from upper intermediate.
All in all though, ChinesePod is a very useful supplement to more traditional language study, particularly for those who can’t /won’t live in China or Taiwan. I wish it had been around when I was learning Chinese.
July 2nd, 2006 at 7:39 am
PrinceRoy,
Target is early September, be sure to check http://letslearnkorean.com for an announcement when it is launched.
July 2nd, 2006 at 3:35 pm
Mark-san,
I came across Chinese Pod only a week ago. I was fascinated by its content and downloaded all the intermediate and advanced lessons. That site gives me a very unique opportunities to improve my listening comprehension of Chinese and English at the same time. Runnning after two girls, I might end up with neither one !
After reading your two articles about Chinese Pod, I have understood why there are some differences(improvements) between early lessons and recent ones. And I found the reason why Jenny pronouces 政治 as zhenzhi instead of zhengzhi. She is a southerner. I agree with your proposal to add a male native Chinese speaker.
P.S. I am looking forward to the opening of Korean Pod !
July 16th, 2006 at 11:49 pm
About Names – I totally agree with you about Chinese names being difficult to learn. It’s hard to remember names when first introduced to someone. It’s like learning a net-new vocabulary word. But I think people have a misplaced notion that ChinesePod is the end-all for everything. It’s just too common for Chinese people to use English nicknames, there’s no need to purge it from Cpod’s staff. It would be just as unmemorable to start calling everyone there as Wang and Zhang and Lingling.
I wonder if there is a list of the top-200 Chinese first and family names. Studying that list is probably the most efficient route. Hey I found a good one! http://technology.chtsai.org/namefreq/
July 17th, 2006 at 1:46 am
Lantian,
Believe it or not, most Chinese people I met in Beijing and Shanghai actually used their Chinese names with me. It doesn’t seem to be nearly the dire situation there that it is in Taiwan. I’ve seen those name lists, but I’ve never been that good at just crunching through vocab lists. I need to use the name and hear it regularly, for it to stick. I’d still love it if Cpod used Chinese names. I mean the idea is to learn Chinese, and I don’t need any more practice with western names (including ones that Chinese people like to use), right?
July 17th, 2006 at 1:48 am
Prince Roy,
I met the Cpod guys last week, and amazingly Ken found the time to chat with me at length. From what he said, they do want to get a guy in the podcasts, and as well as someone who speaks northern, “standard” Mandarin. It’s just that they have to get the right guy. I’m even more convinced now than I was when I wrote this review, that they’re taking the feedback from people like us to heart.
Specific feedback is great! Brendan even has some suggestions as to which Chinese guys they might want to hire. If more really advanced Chinese learners like you guys blog about what you think is missing, it will make the service better in the long run.
July 20th, 2006 at 11:44 pm
Hello,
I’m using CP for six months now and although I also study chinese in a more formal way (using Integrated Chinese in a 3 hour a week evening class), CP has been very useful.
Very good review! Also you are spot on when you say that the strong point of CP is that they can react very quickly to the suggestions that users make…and they really do. webThe fact that you can react to blog articles, discuss all aspects of learning chinese, the website, podcasts, etc on the forum, that you can mail the CP-team, etc. is very important because it stimulates the community spirit and as a student behind your computer screen it is an important motivating factor.
Suggestions from users are taken very seriously and so the website and the services offered are slowly evolving and improving. I hope that another time you will find the time and energy to do a full review of the premium services too. There is still room for improvement there but a number of features, especially the transcripts of the dialogues (on the website, not the pdf’s), the extra phrases and the associated soundbites are very usefull. Recently we saw the introduction of ‘grammar tags’ (free) that help you to explain the grammar associated with structures used in the lesson and the lesson plans (premium) that can help you to use the CP material in a more structured environment like a classroom or with a private tutor. These are just two examples of recent improvements that convice me that CP is still going into the right direction. I see no reason to doubt the fact that the service offered will continue to improve.
Regards
Marc in Belgium
July 21st, 2006 at 4:00 pm
Hi Mark, I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree. Granted most of the people I meet do also just give me their Chinese names, I also get nicknames and English. To be honest, it’s easier for me to remember their English names. I don’t know if I use it as a crutch sometimes. I also abhor vocab lists, but I’m gonna give this name collection a good few days of effort and see if it helps.
I’d still make the argument that with basically just two to four hosts, it’s not worth much to learn their Chinese names, and I am of a strong opinion that I should call a person by whatever they feel comfortable with. And if they feel it’s more ‘comfortable’ to refer to themselves by their English names when interacting with a non-Chinese then it’s not for me to pushback on this. I know you probably face an impossible situation on this next recommendation, because I bet all their parents want them to use English names in class, but learning and using your student’s Chinese names will do the most to help you learn Chinese names, that’s at least 100-200 names right? And it’s constant exposure and you need to use the name when ‘reprimanding’ a student and calling upon them and such. Real communication.
In an editorial on Cpod, I think the names of the hosts have little to do with it’s effectiveness in teaching Chinese.
July 21st, 2006 at 5:24 pm
Lantian, I have two questions for you:
1) Do you think learning names matters when learning a language?
2) Do you think there’s any sort of advantage to using English names inside a Chinese lesson?
As for my students, my job is to do everything I can to improve their English. I would never even consider altering their classes for the benifit of my learning. Since I think learning names is important, I encourage them to use English names in class, and I make sure that they’re all names that are actually used by English speakers.
July 22nd, 2006 at 12:41 am
Mark,
I agree with you completely about the names. I can understand John, Ken and Airic keeping their English names on Chinesepod, but it’s rather odd that the native Chinese teachers would go by English names in their own Chinese lessons. It’s like if I were to teach an English class in Taiwan and call myself by some contrived Chinese name. How weird is that? Maybe they think it creates a more familiar, relaxed atmosphere? I really don’t know.
When I was back in undergrad in the US, one thing I came to admire about the Mainlanders was how few of them used English names compared to the Taiwanese. It was not long after that point that I stopped using a Chinese name. I’m not saying people shouldn’t get a name if they want one, I just don’t think it adds anything, especially past the beginning stages.
They made us get a Chinese name here for namecard/professional purposes, which I strongly resisted. But I still introduce myself by my English name and try not to use the Chinese name unless absolutely necessary.
Re Chinespod paying attention to our suggestions, you may be right: I noticed that they are now using Chinese instead of English to explain vocabulary in the advanced lessons.
July 27th, 2006 at 9:36 am
On Cpod Advanced there is now a lesson specific to names, take a listen.
http://zh.chinesepod.com/podcast/2006/07/26/%e9%ab%98%e7%ba%a75-%e5%a7%93%e5%90%8d%e7%9a%84%e8%b5%b7%e6%ba%90/
About your questions.
1) Do you think learning names matters when learning a language?
I think it’s important for me to call someone by the name they introduce themselves to me as.
2) Do you think there’s any sort of advantage to using English names inside a Chinese lesson?
No not really, not in the sense of creating some sort of ‘total’ Chinese immersion input, but in a lesson of conservatively SWAG counting, a name consisting of 1-4 characters and total 50-150-300 characters which appear in the chatting and lesson and a language lexicon of say 2000-5000 characters I say ‘no biggie.’ If they made up new names for themselves every 5 lessons till they had gone thru the top 50 Chinese names, well maybe that would be an advantage.
Hi Prince Roy,
I really don’t get what the deal is with you guys and names. About your ‘reversing’ of the situation and calling yourself by an made up Chinese name. Umm…have you heard of DaShan? About English classes, in Japan, that’s usually the exact scenario, English teachers get this weird ‘katakana’ized English name, and all the students keep their Japanese names, even in class. There’s no SilverMoon John Takayama san there.
And I don’t get why you don’t use a Chinese name, it’s easier for people to remember. After a while if the person gets to know you, and they speak English, they’ll probably call you by the name you’re most comfortable in, which seems to be English.
July 28th, 2006 at 11:27 am
I think the issue of male speakers is some what overstated. Certainly, if male learners are saying “ai-yo” and “waimien ri si” and such girly things, there is a problem. But I don’t think that people have to be ultra-macho in Chinese fashion to be good male speakers of Chinese.
August 12th, 2006 at 7:29 am
Ta nainai de! Speak for yourself! It may not be an asset in Shanghai, but being able to speak manly mandarin definately helps when out drinking with the gemen’r in the north.
August 16th, 2006 at 5:50 pm
“About your questions.
1) Do you think learning names matters when learning a language?
I think it’s important for me to call someone by the name they introduce themselves to me as.”
Hmm… I think somebody had a bit too much to drink before posting.
October 15th, 2006 at 8:00 am
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January 29th, 2008 at 8:17 pm
[...] ChinesePod–in any event someone much braver than me, Mark Wilbur, has already posted a great review–and remember, he wrote that 1.5 years ago. ChinesePod continues to improve, and it’s an [...]
January 31st, 2008 at 1:15 pm
ChinesePod has gotten far more student-friendly now. They offer student discounts of 20%, which should put the premium subscription in the range of USD$20 per month.
March 18th, 2008 at 11:55 am
Prince Roy, At ChinesePod we are trying to cater to all types of learners, so we have, as you mentioned, individual student discounts at 20% in addition to 40% discounts for groups of students over 10 people. We hope this will be of benefit to those studying Mandarin on tighter budgets!
May 26th, 2008 at 8:37 pm
You guys have to be kidding. I’m Chinese and Jenny is a quack. They expect people to learn from her? I purposely dumb down my Chinese when teaching to Americans and dumb down my English when teaching to Chinese. CPOD doesnt do squat. Durh, we already know Jenny is a native speaker. It’s like Spanish speakers teaching Spanish in school, talking in their native tongue rolling their Rs as much as possible. It proves nothing more than what a lousy teacher they are and that they need to teach it while being familiar with the audience and their beginning abilities. There are plenty of time to roll the Rs and pronounce like a native speaker AFTER learning the basics.
If you want to learn, get Michel Thomas. If you want to watch a clown show, there are plenty of Chinese tv that does that without pretending to teach you Chinese.
May 28th, 2008 at 1:11 am
I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying about the Rs. Is this a complaint about her Shanghai accent?
Setting that comment to one side for the moment, I like some parts of Michael Thomas’s method, especially the strong focus on comprehension at the beginning. But, isn’t his program pretty heavily dependent upon using shared roots between languages for teaching vocabulary? I’ve seen a lot of rave reviews from people who have used it to get started on Romance languages, but how does it work with Chinese?