Mark Caltonhill tells us to “shut up and fit in”
October 2nd, 2006 by MarkSeveral people have pointed me towards this piece, which is directed at Mark S. of Pinyin.info, and other Taiwan bloggers, including myself. In it, Tonyong Pinyin supporter, Mark Caltonhill (why oh why does he have to be named Mark, too?), tells foreign bloggers to “shut up and fit in”.
Later, our increasingly hypothetical tourist might be reading an introduction to Taiwan’s history with names spelt according to the Yale Romanization, popular among American academics until quite recently, and he is likely to be taken to his destination by a driver called Chang or Lin who may spell her name according to any idiosyncratic preference, most commonly based on the older Wade-Giles system.
Perhaps surprisingly, many foreigners who settle in Taiwan or stay for longer periods, rather than becoming acclimatized to this situation, often become increasingly irate. “Taiwan’s approach to this has been far more than ridiculous; it is patronizing of and offensive to foreigners,” said the Taiwan-based American creator of a Web site solely dedicated to the promotion of his favored form of romanization, hanyu pinyin.
His attitude is fairly typical of those expressed on the many foreigner-run forums and blogs in Taiwan, which have almost-unanimously adopted HP as their standard. The system was developed in Russia for that country’s far-eastern Chinese-speaking minority before being adopted by the People’s Republic of China and, more recently, by the United Nations. Nevertheless, just as the PRC has not ruled Taiwan for as much as a single day, similarly, neither has its HP ever been the official romanization system on the island.
source: When in Rome, shut up and fit in, Taiwan Journal, Vol. XXIII No. 38, September 29, 2006
I would suggest that the writer take a closer look at the problem.
Taiwanese people don’t need romanized street names. They can read characters. It’s their foreign spouses, short term foreign workers, foreign immigrants, foreign business people, and foreign students of Chinese that need to look at romanized names. Maybe the reason long term residents tend to want standard pinyin, and Hanyu Pinyin is an ISO standard as well being the UN and the world-wide standard, is because we’ve suffered through the experience of not being able to read the haphazard romanization on the signs here.
I’ve met quite a few people from each group who have a preference for using standard pinyin, and I haven’t met any who prefer Tongyong Pinyin. That isn’t surprising considering that it’s been revised multiple times, it takes more letters to spell out words than standard pinyin does, and it needlessly breaks compatibility with the system all the rest of the world uses.
Instead of assuming that we are saying we know what’s best for the Taiwanese, maybe Mr. Caltonhill should at least consider the possibility that we’re just trying to make life a bit easier for the next wave of foreigners who come here. That can’t be a bad thing for Taiwan. Not that I can see, at any rate.
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October 2nd, 2006 at 10:20 pm
Wasn’t it you who said this guy is probably a troll? Even if he’s not, his argument fails in several respects. Its most glaring weakness is that it asserts a false premise: ‘when in Rome, shut up and fit in’, as though there exists a standardized romanization system in Taiwan.
Does he mean that he wants us to ‘fit in’ by squabbling about which system to use like the Taiwanese? His other points are equally ludicrous. Case in point:
…in fact, there are many different user groups. Although their needs sometimes overlap, often they do not. These include such diverse users as linguists, students of Chinese and casual visitors.
Wrong. Their needs do overlap regarding romanization: these groups overwhelmingly prefer hanyu pinyin, because it is the international standard.
There are many other strange assertions he makes, that he seems to have pulled out of thin air…
October 3rd, 2006 at 12:07 am
You’re right. I did say I thought he was a troll. Since he’s a popular enough of one to be linked to by Salon, I figured a response was in order.
October 3rd, 2006 at 8:22 am
A standardized system of romanization isn’t that important for street signs and the like. What’s really important is to have congruency when looking up information (like online or on a map.) I don’t think it’s that hard to read the crazy street signs one sees on a day to day basis.
What would be really nice is an English/whatever language map with pinyin (tones or not) and characters. Who cares what the Taiwanese government decides to do with street signs then?
October 3rd, 2006 at 10:48 am
Follw the “When in Rome”, argument too closely, and you might end up with characters only. At least that would sharpen our foreign right-brains a little. Must try and get to Taiwan next time. Sounds like this Romanisation slugfest could be a tourist attraction. See FIVE amazing romanisations in one street! Also world’s tallest building.
October 3rd, 2006 at 2:30 pm
Mark Caltonhill has written a book about religion in Taiwan. It was reviewed in the Taipei Times.
It would be interesting to know if the article truly reflects his personal opinion or if he is being used as an attack dog by some Tongyong Pinyin fanatic higher up in the government.
Also when he says, “the bastardized version of hanyu pinyin preferred by Taipei City Hall” Is he referring to the use of CamelCase or simply his dislike for Hanyu Pinyin?
October 3rd, 2006 at 4:16 pm
When in Rome, adapt, yes, but that takes time. Hanyu Pinyin absolutely should be adapted as the standard, with other systems relegated to historical use (or used only for specific dialects) precisely because it is the official standard for much of the world. “When in Rome…” leading to characters only? Fine. Just keep HP for what it’s only good for: a pronunciation tool for those of us (Chinese and foreign) learning to read the characters. And, by extension, a very useful way of typing characters on cellphones and computers.
October 3rd, 2006 at 4:53 pm
Miltown Kid said:
So, if you see “Chengchi” on a sign, how do you read it?
Are you saying that you don’t think the tones and distinctions such as zh vs. ch vs. q matter, or are you saying that you can read enough characters that you can pretty much get around without having to look at the romanized names?
October 3rd, 2006 at 6:43 pm
David, that was a very bubbly review. I wonder if there’s any relation between that and the fact that the Tongyongists he supports and the paper in which the review appeared are affiliated with the same political party. If he really was “being used as an attack dog by some Tongyong Pinyin fanatic higher up in the government” as you suggested, that would make the review even more suspect.
Have you read the book? Do you heard anything firsthand about it?
October 3rd, 2006 at 9:53 pm
I wouldn’t read too much into the book review. It was published in 2003. I like Bradley Winterton’s book reviews and I don’t think he has a political agenda. I haven’t read the book, but the review makes it sound quite interesting. It is worth noting the book was published by the Taipei City Government.
October 4th, 2006 at 8:03 am
Mark said:
Usually, when I’m looking for a street I already knows what it sounds like, so it just needs to be close enough. I think that’d be true for most people. Technology will fix this situation before Taiwan does. Soon enough even scooters will have GPS systems. I can write charaters I don’t know into my PDA to find out what it is.
The foreigner that goes to a new location unprepared (without knowing how to say the street names, etc.) is the foreigner whose Mandarin is good enough not to care what the romanization looks like.
Something else worth noting is it seems like most locals don’t rely on street names. They usually need a well known location to find something. The way the streets twist and turn here in Yonghe makes that understandable.
October 14th, 2006 at 2:52 pm
caltonhill told no one to “shut up and fit in”
best to you all,
mark caltonhill
October 14th, 2006 at 3:00 pm
oh, and while i’m here:
where in all the articles i’ve written about romanization (in addition to the central gov’t’s “taiwan journal” see my pieces in the city gov’t’s “discover taipei” 2000 or the bluish “china post” ca.2001) have i ever said i am a “tongyong pinyin supporter” as you claim?
the topic is a little more complex than you like to make out
of course, carry on calling me a troll, central government lacky or whatever if it makes you happy
best
MC
October 14th, 2006 at 5:34 pm
Mark C, I’ll admit that idea of political forces influencing your writing was speculation based on the fact that it was on a .tw.gov site and that the current central government has political objections with using standard pinyin.
If you weren’t trolling, then why say things such as the following?
Mark C said:
That just isn’t true. Toshuo.com, one of the largest “Taiwan Blogs”, has a definite bent towards Chinese learners and newcomers, and Pinyin.info, which you directly referred to, is the largest collection of readings from linguists on the topic of romanized Chinese on the web.
Mark C said:
If you weren’t trolling, then what was the purpose of all that venom? In one swipe, you’ve insulted bloggers who want standard pinyin, Christian missionaries, and English teachers… in other words more than 90% of the westerners in Taiwan.
October 14th, 2006 at 5:35 pm
Miltownkid said:
I guess we’ve had different experiences in this regard. My Mandarin was good enough for me to be able to make use of pinyin after only 2 weeks of class. I still go into “new locations” unprepared all the time, now. I can read the characters for the most part, but there are still occasions when (correct) pinyin would be useful. There are quite a few people in Taiwan who read far less Chinese than I do, but who can make use of pinyin.
October 14th, 2006 at 5:51 pm
and also while i’m here:
David said:
personal opinion (are there other kinds?)
is it so hard for you to believe that some people have opinions that differ from your own?
as i say, read my other writings on romanization in non-governmental publications and you will find i have not changed my opinion over the years
(by the way, publications like the Taiwan Journal are always looking for contributions; you even get paid for expressing your opinions)
David said:
CamelCase and the lack of tone markings
(btw it is so nice to know you are interested in the details of my opinions, do feel free to ask more. many of your compatriots in blogland do not take the time to consider what i am actually saying)
but, oh no, having said that, fyi, i do not “dislike hanyu pinyin” (please read the article more carefully) and, indeed, i do not dislike the city gov’t’s use of CamelCase, in fact, i think it is an improvement
but, as far as i understand, it is not orthodox HP, therefore i refered to it as “bastardized” HP
no pejorative intention
mc
October 14th, 2006 at 6:05 pm
Mark said:
apologies (if necessary)
as someone who still usually expresses his opinions in the print media rather than on blogs, i am probably not as au fait with internet terminology as you are
but, as far as my understanding goes, expressing my opinion in part of (what at least i hope is) a logically structured arguement does not constitute trolling (or even “venom” for that matter) simply because you disagree with me
but, if that constitutes trolling, apologies
mc
October 14th, 2006 at 10:18 pm
“Trolling” means taking a position that you don’t actually support, for the purpose of getting a reaction out of people. When I first saw your article, it looked like a troll to me. It appeared to take a ridiculous stand and to mock most the people who would read it.
Now, I’m not really sure what your ideas about romanization, English teachers or missionaries are. Am I at least correct in assuming that you don’t want foreigners advocating standard pinyin? Could you provide links to some of these other things you’ve written about romanization?
October 14th, 2006 at 10:24 pm
I’ve added “_____ said:” before each block-quote, since it was getting a bit difficult to remember who said what.
October 20th, 2006 at 9:08 pm
Do Tongyong supporters really know their leader Yu Boquan?
E.g., in http://news.yam.com/appledaily/garden/200609/20060930384380.html
we see he stormed out of a recent meeting when they voted 17-1 against his stuff.
E.g., he sues Academia Sinica for firing him, etc. etc.
What if their leader is a kook?
57 Moby Thesaurus words for “kook”:…
crackbrain, crackpot, crank, cuckoo, dement, demoniac, ding-a-ling
Anyways, his supporters should have proof that he is not a kook before supporting further.
Sorry.
October 21st, 2006 at 1:00 am
Woah… so he didn’t even vote before he stormed off? That article says the 17 were “unanimous”.