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	<title>Comments on: Old Taiwan-hand Pinyin</title>
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	<link>http://toshuo.com/2006/old-taiwan-hand-pinyin/</link>
	<description>Chinese, Linguistics, Science, Cultural Observations and whatever else I feel like writing about</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 12:01:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Xena</title>
		<link>http://toshuo.com/2006/old-taiwan-hand-pinyin/comment-page-1/#comment-28511</link>
		<dc:creator>Xena</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Feb 2007 11:46:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toshuo.com/?p=168#comment-28511</guid>
		<description>please
can somebody help me
i have found these system of taiwanese romanization http://www.edutech.org.tw/AR-Letter/Taiwanese(1).htm
it's differs from pinyin so much! i m really confused... can somebody easily read that? may be somebody knows the site the rules of pronunciation of all these are explained better?
hope to hear from you soon</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>please<br />
can somebody help me<br />
i have found these system of taiwanese romanization <a href="http://www.edutech.org.tw/AR-Letter/Taiwanese" rel="nofollow">http://www.edutech.org.tw/AR-Letter/Taiwanese</a>(1).htm<br />
it&#8217;s differs from pinyin so much! i m really confused&#8230; can somebody easily read that? may be somebody knows the site the rules of pronunciation of all these are explained better?<br />
hope to hear from you soon</p>
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		<title>By: Chuck</title>
		<link>http://toshuo.com/2006/old-taiwan-hand-pinyin/comment-page-1/#comment-1980</link>
		<dc:creator>Chuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 May 2006 21:42:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toshuo.com/?p=168#comment-1980</guid>
		<description>Interesting thread here. I first went to Taiwan in 1981 and I've learned at least four different romanizations (WG, pinyin, Yale, 國語羅馬字) plus bopomofo. None of the teachers I ever had in Taiwan could really do any romanization system well (although all could do bopomofo perfectly) so it is no surprise that public officials and other random non-linguists mess up spellings on signs and other places.

A few random thoughts:

Keelung is a romanized version of that city's name as pronounced in Taiwanese (the closest approximation in pinyin would be "Gailang". I don't know whether that name is itself a "Minnanized" version of a previous aboriginal name.

Peking is what the characters 北京 sounded like to a British postal worker when pronounced by a Cantonese speaker in Hong Kong or Guangdong sometime in the 18th century. If you get someone to say those characters in Taiwanese it also sounds a lot like "Peking".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting thread here. I first went to Taiwan in 1981 and I&#8217;ve learned at least four different romanizations (WG, pinyin, Yale, 國語羅馬字) plus bopomofo. None of the teachers I ever had in Taiwan could really do any romanization system well (although all could do bopomofo perfectly) so it is no surprise that public officials and other random non-linguists mess up spellings on signs and other places.</p>
<p>A few random thoughts:</p>
<p>Keelung is a romanized version of that city&#8217;s name as pronounced in Taiwanese (the closest approximation in pinyin would be &#8220;Gailang&#8221;. I don&#8217;t know whether that name is itself a &#8220;Minnanized&#8221; version of a previous aboriginal name.</p>
<p>Peking is what the characters 北京 sounded like to a British postal worker when pronounced by a Cantonese speaker in Hong Kong or Guangdong sometime in the 18th century. If you get someone to say those characters in Taiwanese it also sounds a lot like &#8220;Peking&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark S.</title>
		<link>http://toshuo.com/2006/old-taiwan-hand-pinyin/comment-page-1/#comment-1658</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Apr 2006 02:09:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toshuo.com/?p=168#comment-1658</guid>
		<description>I'm glad those pages were of use.

The Postal System isn't really a system. It's probably better thought of as the practice of using romanized forms that had become traditional by the late 19th century. Often, these had nothing to do with Mandarin (e.g., Canton for what is now labeled Guangzhou); in this one particular aspect the Postal System has a distinct advantage: the spellings of place names were generally assigned on the basis of the language of the people living in that place instead of the present Mandarin uber alles approach. 

I don't know anything about the etymology of Jilong/Keelung. But I suspect it is like so many other place names, where the name comes from the name given to the place by the original inhabitants (a certain tribe aborigines, in this case). The proper pronunciation probably got mangled some whenever whoever it was from outside (certainly not a trained linguist!) wrote down the name. Then Chinese characters -- often with a dash or two of auspiciousness added -- could be assigned based on the pronunciation of the person who gets the job of officially recording the name. Then, finally, people start believing that the Chinese characters represent the real etymology, and so we end up with nonsense like "terraced bay" being the "real" meaning of Taiwan. And so we end up with "the common fallacy of wàngwénshēngyì 望文生義, whereby the semantic qualities of Chinese characters interfere with the real meanings of the terms that they are being used to transcribe phonetically." (See Victor Mair's &lt;a href="http://pinyin.info/readings/mair/taiwanese.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;How to Forget Your Mother Tongue and Remember Your National Language&lt;/a&gt;.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m glad those pages were of use.</p>
<p>The Postal System isn&#8217;t really a system. It&#8217;s probably better thought of as the practice of using romanized forms that had become traditional by the late 19th century. Often, these had nothing to do with Mandarin (e.g., Canton for what is now labeled Guangzhou); in this one particular aspect the Postal System has a distinct advantage: the spellings of place names were generally assigned on the basis of the language of the people living in that place instead of the present Mandarin uber alles approach. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know anything about the etymology of Jilong/Keelung. But I suspect it is like so many other place names, where the name comes from the name given to the place by the original inhabitants (a certain tribe aborigines, in this case). The proper pronunciation probably got mangled some whenever whoever it was from outside (certainly not a trained linguist!) wrote down the name. Then Chinese characters &#8212; often with a dash or two of auspiciousness added &#8212; could be assigned based on the pronunciation of the person who gets the job of officially recording the name. Then, finally, people start believing that the Chinese characters represent the real etymology, and so we end up with nonsense like &#8220;terraced bay&#8221; being the &#8220;real&#8221; meaning of Taiwan. And so we end up with &#8220;the common fallacy of wàngwénshēngyì 望文生義, whereby the semantic qualities of Chinese characters interfere with the real meanings of the terms that they are being used to transcribe phonetically.&#8221; (See Victor Mair&#8217;s <a href="http://pinyin.info/readings/mair/taiwanese.html" rel="nofollow">How to Forget Your Mother Tongue and Remember Your National Language</a>.)</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://toshuo.com/2006/old-taiwan-hand-pinyin/comment-page-1/#comment-1619</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Apr 2006 10:54:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toshuo.com/?p=168#comment-1619</guid>
		<description>Mark S., thank you!  I read through that page on your site, and found explanations for most of the wierd "old-Taiwan hand" romanizations that I've seen.  I was already familiar with the whole bastardized Wade-Giles phemonimon and written about it before, but MPS2 was the missing piece of the puzzle.  It explains &lt;i&gt;nearly&lt;/i&gt; all of the non-Wade-Guiles, non-pinyin, romanizations I've seen.

BTW, do you know how the postal system's crazier romanizations, i.e. Jilong-&#62;Keelung, came about?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark S., thank you!  I read through that page on your site, and found explanations for most of the wierd &#8220;old-Taiwan hand&#8221; romanizations that I&#8217;ve seen.  I was already familiar with the whole bastardized Wade-Giles phemonimon and written about it before, but MPS2 was the missing piece of the puzzle.  It explains <i>nearly</i> all of the non-Wade-Guiles, non-pinyin, romanizations I&#8217;ve seen.</p>
<p>BTW, do you know how the postal system&#8217;s crazier romanizations, i.e. Jilong-&gt;Keelung, came about?</p>
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		<title>By: Mark S.</title>
		<link>http://toshuo.com/2006/old-taiwan-hand-pinyin/comment-page-1/#comment-1584</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Apr 2006 09:12:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toshuo.com/?p=168#comment-1584</guid>
		<description>The situation is basically as John M. described. Signs in Taipei, where most foreigners lived and worked, used to be in &lt;a href="http://www.pinyin.info/romanization/wadegiles/bastardized.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;bastardized Wade-Giles&lt;/a&gt; (e.g., Chungshan, Tunhua), with a bit of the old Chinese Postal System (e.g., Nanking, Keelung) tossed in. (&lt;em&gt;Ding, dong, the witch is dead!&lt;/em&gt;) Outside Taipei, most signs have been -- and, for the most part, &lt;em&gt;remain&lt;/em&gt; -- in &lt;a href="http://www.pinyin.info/romanization/mps2/index.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;MPS2&lt;/a&gt;.

Note, though, that "Peking" is Postal System, not Wade-Giles, in which it would be Pei-ching.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The situation is basically as John M. described. Signs in Taipei, where most foreigners lived and worked, used to be in <a href="http://www.pinyin.info/romanization/wadegiles/bastardized.html" rel="nofollow">bastardized Wade-Giles</a> (e.g., Chungshan, Tunhua), with a bit of the old Chinese Postal System (e.g., Nanking, Keelung) tossed in. (<em>Ding, dong, the witch is dead!</em>) Outside Taipei, most signs have been &#8212; and, for the most part, <em>remain</em> &#8212; in <a href="http://www.pinyin.info/romanization/mps2/index.html" rel="nofollow">MPS2</a>.</p>
<p>Note, though, that &#8220;Peking&#8221; is Postal System, not Wade-Giles, in which it would be Pei-ching.</p>
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		<title>By: john m</title>
		<link>http://toshuo.com/2006/old-taiwan-hand-pinyin/comment-page-1/#comment-1524</link>
		<dc:creator>john m</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Apr 2006 16:32:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toshuo.com/?p=168#comment-1524</guid>
		<description>Hi,
Yes, the old timers (I first came here 11 years ago, so I guess that makes me old-timer now) are consistently  using 'wierd' romanizations cos they are using the system orignally used here, which is basically a poorly implemented version of the Wade-Giles system. IIRC it is one of the reasons that Taipei is not spelled Taibei, cos WG has things like Tai p'ei
where p' is actually a b but no-one ever knows or cares, and the apostrophe gets dropped, so Taipei. Same reason for Peking p' = b, k' = j.  
You will also see this system used by older people for romanizing their names, hence Chang ch= 'zh' etc.   
Since it was used extensively, many of us still use it when writing local locations in "English".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi,<br />
Yes, the old timers (I first came here 11 years ago, so I guess that makes me old-timer now) are consistently  using &#8216;wierd&#8217; romanizations cos they are using the system orignally used here, which is basically a poorly implemented version of the Wade-Giles system. IIRC it is one of the reasons that Taipei is not spelled Taibei, cos WG has things like Tai p&#8217;ei<br />
where p&#8217; is actually a b but no-one ever knows or cares, and the apostrophe gets dropped, so Taipei. Same reason for Peking p&#8217; = b, k&#8217; = j.<br />
You will also see this system used by older people for romanizing their names, hence Chang ch= &#8216;zh&#8217; etc.<br />
Since it was used extensively, many of us still use it when writing local locations in &#8220;English&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Kanwa-kyudai</title>
		<link>http://toshuo.com/2006/old-taiwan-hand-pinyin/comment-page-1/#comment-1518</link>
		<dc:creator>Kanwa-kyudai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Apr 2006 07:47:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toshuo.com/?p=168#comment-1518</guid>
		<description>Mark-san,

I have gotten some information on the romanizations in Taiwan. It might be confusing even for the Taiwanese to use several systems, and all the more so for foreigners. In this sense, I feel very comfortable living in China. 

1. The “国語羅馬字”was published in 1923 in China. It was kind of an improved Wade system and did not become popular due to the introduction of the “中国拉丁化新文字”in 1929. In China, the Hanyu Pinyin came into wider use later. 

2. But the “国語羅馬字” is still being used by some linguists in Taiwan. In this system, for example, “朱” is romanized as “chu” and “謝” as “Shieh.” And tones are represented by using alphabets, not by tone marks. 

3. In 1986, the Taiwan government published the “simplified 国語羅馬字,” and it has been used for some street signs in the areas except in Taibei since 1998. This system uses the same tone marks as the Hanyu Pinyin in China.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark-san,</p>
<p>I have gotten some information on the romanizations in Taiwan. It might be confusing even for the Taiwanese to use several systems, and all the more so for foreigners. In this sense, I feel very comfortable living in China. </p>
<p>1. The “国語羅馬字”was published in 1923 in China. It was kind of an improved Wade system and did not become popular due to the introduction of the “中国拉丁化新文字”in 1929. In China, the Hanyu Pinyin came into wider use later. </p>
<p>2. But the “国語羅馬字” is still being used by some linguists in Taiwan. In this system, for example, “朱” is romanized as “chu” and “謝” as “Shieh.” And tones are represented by using alphabets, not by tone marks. </p>
<p>3. In 1986, the Taiwan government published the “simplified 国語羅馬字,” and it has been used for some street signs in the areas except in Taibei since 1998. This system uses the same tone marks as the Hanyu Pinyin in China.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://toshuo.com/2006/old-taiwan-hand-pinyin/comment-page-1/#comment-1515</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Apr 2006 01:17:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toshuo.com/?p=168#comment-1515</guid>
		<description>When I arrived, the "chung"'s you're describing killed me. "Taiwan Fun"'s website used it to give directions, while the streetsigns in Taichung/Taizhong had switched to zh's. I kept wondering if there were more sounds in Chinese that I hadn't been told about before...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I arrived, the &#8220;chung&#8221;&#8217;s you&#8217;re describing killed me. &#8220;Taiwan Fun&#8221;&#8217;s website used it to give directions, while the streetsigns in Taichung/Taizhong had switched to zh&#8217;s. I kept wondering if there were more sounds in Chinese that I hadn&#8217;t been told about before&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Clyde Warden</title>
		<link>http://toshuo.com/2006/old-taiwan-hand-pinyin/comment-page-1/#comment-1507</link>
		<dc:creator>Clyde Warden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Apr 2006 15:29:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toshuo.com/?p=168#comment-1507</guid>
		<description>Mark, if you really are looking for an answer, the man who I know would know is Professor Reynolds at National Chi Nan University.  He is expert on Chinese literature and an old hand in Taiwan.  http://www.flld.ncnu.edu.tw/flld2004/teacher.asp?no=5</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark, if you really are looking for an answer, the man who I know would know is Professor Reynolds at National Chi Nan University.  He is expert on Chinese literature and an old hand in Taiwan.  <a href="http://www.flld.ncnu.edu.tw/flld2004/teacher.asp?no=5" rel="nofollow">http://www.flld.ncnu.edu.tw/flld2004/teacher.asp?no=5</a></p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://toshuo.com/2006/old-taiwan-hand-pinyin/comment-page-1/#comment-1502</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Apr 2006 04:48:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toshuo.com/?p=168#comment-1502</guid>
		<description>That's what I kept thinking, but I keep seeing so many people write down &lt;i&gt;identical&lt;/i&gt; non-pinyin romanizations.  It's got to have something with the way streets used to be named or something.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s what I kept thinking, but I keep seeing so many people write down <i>identical</i> non-pinyin romanizations.  It&#8217;s got to have something with the way streets used to be named or something.</p>
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