Taipei Times Insanity Continues
November 2nd, 2006 by MarkI really don’t get it with the Taipei Times. It seems like clock-work. Every couple of months, it pumps out another story about how Taiwan can dominate the Chinese as a second language (CSL) market. They also keep bringing up the HSK-knockoff test that Shida made. If you aren’t familiar with this topic, see my earlier piece: A Test Nobody Wants
The conference, entitled “Opportunities for Taiwan Amid the Global Craze for Learning Chinese,” brought together NTU professors and students in a discussion of how to capitalize on the sheer and growing number of Chinese language students worldwide.
NTU Chinese Literature Department Chair He Chi-peng (何寄澎) unveiled at the conference a Chinese language test designed by NTU professors that he said could replace China’s official HSK (Hanyu Shuiping Kaoshi, 漢語水平考試) evaluation as the world standard in determining Chinese language students’ linguistic proficiency.
Taipei Times: Conference puts spotlight on Mandarin study craze
I suppose it is possible, at least on an abstract level, for the non-standard test that is useless, both for getting China-related jobs at international companies and for entrance to college programs, to replace the HSK as the world standard. It’s also possible for the “global craze for learning Chinese” to give way to a “global craze for learning Portuguese”.
Much of the article talks about what a great learning environment Taiwan presents for foreigners. As I’ve blogged in the past, I think there are some serious disadvantages for lower-level students here. One big one is price. One excellent Chinese university in Harbin offers 20 hours a week of instruction for about $1000 US per semester and room and board for $70 US per month. Studying even 10 hours a week in Taiwan would be much more expensive. Still the largest issue is the large number of Taiwanese people who really don’t want to speak in Chinese with westerners.
I realize everybody’s experiences are different, but I found it extremely difficult to avoid English language situations when I was a Shida student. Even recently, I encounter the situation fairly often. A couple weeks ago, I went to one of my friends’ houses. “If Taiwan really is a superior learning environment, then why not just use the HSK, and then brag loudly when foreign students in Taiwan consistently score higher than those in Hong Kong or mainland China?”As I arrived a group of Taiwanese people were talking in Chinese. I greeted them and introduced myself in Chinese. Instead of “nice to meet you”, or something along those lines, one answered (in English), “Can you speak Chinese?” Then, for the rest of the evening, regardless of whether I was speaking English or Chinese, she answered me in English. She did talk to the Taiwanese people there in Chinese, though. Perfect language learning environment? Far from it. It is one I run into fairly often in Taiwan, though. Beijing, on the other hand wasn’t like that at all. The vast majority of people expected me to be able to speak Mandarin. Better still, foreign students in the CET Harbin advanced program all take “No English” pledges and speak Chinese 100% of the time.
Just from a tactical standpoint, I really don’t understand what Taiwan has to gain by making a separate test. The rest of the world has already settled on one, and just as New Zealand would have a hard time making a test to take market share from the TOEFL or the IEALTS, Taiwan doesn’t have the scale to take on the HSK. Making a separate testing system makes Taiwan less attractive to western students as a study destination, not more so. If Taiwanese schools really do have superior pedagogy and Taiwan really is a superior learning environment, then why not just use the same HSK that everyone else does, and then brag loudly when foreign students in Taiwan consistently score higher than those in Hong Kong or mainland China?
One redeeming paragraph
This article was better than most I’ve seen in the Taipei Times on this topic. There was one very reasonable suggestion.
Formerly the “Stanford Center,” ICLP is an elite school with a forty-year history of providing foreigners with high-quality Chinese language training. Cheng Yu-yu (鄭毓瑜), an NTU professor of Chinese literature, said that ICLP carefully screened prospective students, accepting only outstanding students from top schools overseas.
Cheng called on Taiwan’s Mandarin Chinese training centers to emulate ICLP’s top-of-the-market pedagogical methods to attract more elite students in a bid to fill the “higher-end niche” of the market — a niche not yet filled by China, participants said.
I’ve heard glowing praise of the ICLP from no less than six former students. Not only is it clearly the best school in Taiwan, but it is respected as much as the IUP program in Beijing or the CET program in Harbin. In fact, if I had the money, ICLP is where I would be right now. Considering the vastly higher living expenses of Taiwan than the mainland, the only reasonable segment of the market to go after is the top. People who want the best, and are willing to pay the kind of money it takes to go to those schools likely won’t care about the difference in living costs at all.
Related Post: A Test Nobody Wants
Related Post: Chinese Character Simplification
Related Post: Taipei Times: Studying in Taiwan
November 2nd, 2006 at 6:48 am
I agree with most of your points here, particularly the inanity of Taiwan creating its own ‘HSK’. It’s about as dumb a blunder as them creating their own romanization system for Mandarin to compete with Hanyu Pinyin. I’ll never understand why some here on an island of 23 million want to take on 1.4 billion PRC in the Mandarin market. A’int. gonna. happen. You raise an interesting point about the top-level market, which certainly is ICLP, but the PRC will eventually get that too, and in fact Stanford Center is now at Beijing Qinghua U.
I agree in spirit with your other point here: the great thing about the PRC is that people there really do expect you to be able to speak Chinese. Very refreshing.
That said, I’ve been able to avoid the English traps here for the most part. When someone insists on answering me in English here (when I consider it inappropriate to do so) I take one of two tacks: 難道你不會講國語嗎, or 我們在台灣,應該講中文. These almost always work. Also, I think these ‘English at all cost’ types generally fall into easily identifiable subsets of Taiwanese society, and I usually just avoid them altogether.
Poagao has an interesting theory about it: he says we brought it on ourselves. His argument is that Westerners in Taiwan for so long just didn’t bother to learn Chinese at all, that we’ve conditioned the Taiwanese to feel that we want them to use English with us. Maybe he’ll chime in…
November 2nd, 2006 at 11:09 am
I don’t know if the Mainland really is better than Taiwan for studying Chinese, and, never having been to Taiwan I can’t really comment. I just want to reassure you that we do have the very same English-only subsets of society here. Learning Chinese here really can take a fair bit of effort- and that’s the effort needed to get a Chinese-language environment before you start putting in the effort to practice and learn. And that’s a problem I’ve come across in literally every part of China I’ve been to.
Still, it is kinda fun speaking Mandarin in Hong Kong…..
November 2nd, 2006 at 1:49 pm
Chris, I think you ought to come to Taiwan sometime. I did find a few of those “English-only” types on the mainland this summer, especially around Dàshilár in Beijing and Nánjīng Dōng Lù in Shanghai. However, even in those places, the concentration was much less than what I’m used to in Taibei. I actually lived in a hostel on Dàshilár, surrounded by tourists who didn’t speak any Chinese and still found speaking Chinese with the locals less difficult than in Taiwan (especially the capital).
November 2nd, 2006 at 1:56 pm
PR, there are still some advantages Taiwan has, though they are smaller than before. It’s still easier to get local roommates here, and the media is still more open. Considering that ICLP has done so well for so long with almost no support from the government, there’s definitely a lot Taiwan could do on the top end if it were a priority. The PRC is putting a lot of money and effort into supporting Chinese learners. Here, on the other hand, between wacky dis-organized romanization systems, taking away the ability of non-University language programs to give foreign students visas, and a variety of other policies, it’s almost as if the ROC wants lose its foreign Chinese students.
Oh, well. At least Taiwan still rules for EFL teaching.
November 2nd, 2006 at 2:37 pm
I tried to make a comment earlier, but it didn’t show up. I’m not sure what the problem was. I really don’t have any problem with people wanting to speak to me in English. I think like Prince Roy said above it can be avoided with a little effort.
Taiwan should definitely seek to promote itself to niche markets and highlight its advantages over China. Tests that nobody has ever heard of should not be considered one of those niche markets though.
November 2nd, 2006 at 7:57 pm
Sorry about that David. My Akismet spam filter has gotten a little over-aggressive.
I agree that people wanting to use English can be avoided to some degree. Yes, motivated students can still succeed, but that’s true nearly anywhere, even in places where Mandarin is a second language. The environment still matters.
Back when I was in Guatemala, nobody tried to talk to me in English. If I didn’t understand something, they’d just keep talking in Spanish and use hand gestures if necessary. Foreigners from all over the place, including Asia, learned Spanish far more quickly there than any but the most dedicated students learn Chinese here. Obviously there were other reasons too, but I think the locals’ willingness to speak their own language with foreigners is a big one.
November 2nd, 2006 at 10:09 pm
I agree with most of your points Mark. I do find that most people in Taiwan want to speak English with me or freak out when I speak Chinese. Mind you that is probably based on my poor mandarin and large size. Most people in China spoke Chinese with me and never even attempted to communicate in English. I do only have limited experiences in China and was in much smaller places than Shanghai or Beijing.
I also agree that the creation of the HSK is pretty laughable. I knwo this off post but what are your thoughts on KK? I assume it is another Taiwan made system but may be wrong.
November 2nd, 2006 at 10:35 pm
As far as I know, KK was based on a British system, but adapted for American phonics. As a result, you can’t find it in any dictionaries, but Taiwanese people who are familiar with it can usually make good use of Oxford University Press dictionaries.
As for using the system at all, I have some misgivings. I’m not a big fan of brute force memorization. As you know, I like teaching phonics and spelling patterns. After a year or so of my classes, my students know how to pronounce the vast majority of words (about 80%) without seeing the KK. They do still have to remember the exceptions, but that’s a lot better than memorizing everything.
On the other hand, my students have four hours of class with me every week, and they spend another three hours or so doing homework for my classes. They also have CDs to listen to. For students who don’t go to buxibans and who don’t have as much listening exposure, maybe KK is necessary. I’ve never met any Taiwanese people who achieved good pronunciation through memorizing reams of KK, but maybe some of my readers have.
November 3rd, 2006 at 1:23 am
There’s one other thing about KK that bugs me. The diphthong written as [eɪ] in IPA is written as [e] in KK. This is a diphthong that English speaking Taiwanese people are notorious for mis-pronouncing as a monophthong, usually a short [æ] or [ɛ].
This topic is definitely worth a real post.
November 3rd, 2006 at 2:35 pm
Just responding to Mark and Prince Roy’s comments, I actually don’t know if it is hopeless. The US is not going to produce any effective pedagogical materials itself, and a Taiwanese system will be more readily accepted than anything from mainland China. Taiwan already dominates the American university system, and while the mainland may be playing catch-up with their Confuscian institutes, they have not been terribly successful.
A more realistic question cheerleading newspapers should ask is - what on earth is Taiwan actually doing in CSL instruction? Do the people behind this project have a good track record or is this just institutional squabbling for funds in the name of helping students. Maybe those funds could be better spent on scholarships, or producing free Taiwan-oriented learning materials. I’ve bitched before about the fact that the US government has its head in the sand about Chinese-language learning. But what makes the Taiwanese government any different? The mainland pedagogical system is fairly awful, but at least the country is producing CSL programs on CCTV and working to make them more accessible abroad.
Unless either Taiwan or the United States gets their heads out of the sand. And that will probably leave these sorts of threads devolving into discussions of where the best environment for language learning is — since plunking yourself down somewhere will be the only effective way to learn the language.
November 3rd, 2006 at 2:43 pm
Sorry — that last line should have read “Unless either Taiwan or the United States gets their heads out of the sand, China will be the only game in town in CSL education in a few years. Either that or everyone will suck equally”.
November 4th, 2006 at 7:46 am
Yes, being the best at preparing students for the standard test would seem to be the most sensible goal, but from many posts it doesn’t seem like Taiwan takes the sensible option so often?
I wish my comprehension was good enough to insist on Chinese only replies.
I have only stayed in Beijing a couple of months over the last few years, but I felt that rather than expecting you to speak Chinese there, they were just relieved, because their English was unlikely to cut it.
November 4th, 2006 at 9:00 am
Actually some of the people I met there spoke better English than all but a handful of Taiwanese people I’ve ever spoken with, including English teachers and translators… It’s just that they were quite willing to talk in Chinese and as a result, I didn’t realize their English was so good until days later. I think the difference is more about cultural pride and feelings that foreigners should learn their language than it was about some big difference in English skills between people in Beijing and those in Taiwan.
November 4th, 2006 at 11:37 am
Is there a lack of cultural pride in Taiwan? I’d like to read more on this if you feel like expanding. I found the same cultural pride thing in Italy. Foreigners barking questions in English without even an atempt at buon giorno were ignored, even though nearly everyone had excellent English, but make even a crap attempt at Italian and the attitude switched instantly to smiles and cooperation. i think I found the same in Beijing. Even an attempt got you a lot of points. Is there not the same attitude in taiwan?
November 5th, 2006 at 1:47 am
Laoban,
you’ve opened a can of worms that Chinese-speaking foreigners on this island have been debating for literally decades.
Yes, a butchered 你好 in Taiwan brings the same kinds of accolades like in Italy. People here will praise the person to the skies and tell them how wonderful their Chinese is (in English).
But what’s bugging Mark are those people who insist on speaking English even after he’s demonstrated he’s perfectly capable of conducting his business with them in Mandarin.
Is it a lack of cultural pride? I really don’t know, but don’t think so. I find Poagao’s explanation (see my previous comment) most intriguing. What do others think?
November 5th, 2006 at 5:40 pm
Laoban,
There definitely is a difference in cultural pride. I met tons of Chinese people who were proud of having such a long history, proud of having put a man into space and proud about hosting the Olympics. Several people told me that “foreigners have to learn Chinese now”.
In Taiwan, on the other hand, it’s different. First off, there’s some uncertainty. Are they Taiwanese, or Chinese, or both? Beyond that issue, I’ve met many younger people who don’t even want to be Taiwanese. Some wish the were Japanese (including former president 李登輝), others wish to be American or Canadian. I would be amazed to see a Taiwanese person say, “Our language is important and foreigners who come here had darned well better learn it.”
November 5th, 2006 at 5:52 pm
Prince Roy,
I don’t find the idea that it’s “all the foreigners’ fault” that compelling at all. Westerners who don’t learn Chinese have been here for a long time. That’s true. Students of Chinese have also been here for a long time, too, though. More relevant, large numbers foreigners have been in Japan, not learning Japanese, for a longer time, and yet the Japanese are more willing to accept (and even to expect) that westerners can speak their language. In an even more extreme case, Mexico has had contact with English speaking Americans for centuries, and yet it’s almost completely devoid of the “English at all costs crowd”.
The only real excuse I can think of for locals not being able to accept that some westerners can speak their language is the local media. The government constantly pushes messages about how important learning English is, and westerners who speak Chinese well rarely appear on TV at all, excecpt for the occasional talk show. I haven’t seen any shows that teach Chinese as a second language, either. In Japan, on the otherhand, westerners who speak excellent Japanese are on TV all the time, and there are also quite a few shows that teach people Japanese.
November 6th, 2006 at 8:32 am
Someone that recently came from “the mainland” said he has this problem with Taiwanese people always using English and how it never happened in China. I say “I never had this problem here.” Then he says “Maybe it’s because you’re not White.” I thought about it for a second and had to agree. So I think you should change it to “pale faced” westerners ;). I think if you think about it too, you might agree.
I have had Taiwanese people come up and ask me (in Mandarin) things like “What time is it?” while sitting on a bench or something surrounded by other Taiwanese.
November 6th, 2006 at 3:00 pm
My experience is similar to Miltown’s, though I’m not, to my knowledge, black. I found that, be it in China or here, most people are willing to speak Chinese with me. Only very occasionally will I find one of those “English-only” types, but I either use Prince Roy’s approach or ignore them. They’re few and far between in my experience.
My theory that this is learned behavior is just, IMHO, one contributing factor. Yes, there’s a distinct lack of national and cultural pride in comparison with China (which some may say kind of goes overboard in this respect). The reason I say this is that I’ve come into contact with the remainders of “that crowd”, i.e. the expat businessmen types who seem to think learning Chinese is beneath them, and it seems to me that, before the 1980’s, this type of foreigner was the dominant type of foreigner here, which “trained” locals in how to view foreigners. Stereotypes die hard, and while the streets are teeming with Chinese-speaking foreigners these days, there are still quite a few who have lived here for decades and don’t speak the language. It may not be the case; I was just wondering out loud to Prince Roy whether it might be one factor among many.
April 10th, 2007 at 5:45 pm
You seem fairly “in the know” when it comes to learning Chinese, but seriously ignorant of the media. I’m the author of the Taipei Times articles you’ve criticized. Taipei Times, as you don’t seem to understand, is a newspaper that reports on *events that happen in Taiwan*. These tests and efforts by Taiwanese institutions and the Ministry of Education to capitalize on Chinese learning trends are developments that concern Taiwan, which is why I had to report on them. You’ll notice that I didn’t endorse any of the plans mentioned. I actually don’t disagree with many of your observations, but why the hell aren’t you criticizing the education ministry or the other institutions that have created the test(s) in question? Are you angry at Taipei Times because we reported on this stuff? Would you rather not know that these things, for better or worse, are happening?
These comments, especially, expose your total ignorance of the media, and what our role is:
Actually, I wrote one, 1, yi piece on Shida’s test, you moron (Taipei Times’ only article on the matter). That’s it. As for your “clock-work” comment, “every couple of months,” the education ministry, or somebody else comes out with something new on the matter every — you guessed it! — couple of months, and it’s our job to keep those interested in educational developments in Taiwan up to speed on such matters — regardless of whether they’re happy with them or not.
You’ll also notice that the information presented in the articles came from my sources, not from me. I’ve also included negative comments not unlike many of the arguments you’ve made (see below), so please don’t spout more ignorance along the lines of Taipei Times being some kind of mouth piece for the education ministry. (http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2006/09/20/2003328416/print).
Finally, you’re an idiot. Having lived, worked and studied for 4 years in Beijing and Shanghai, it pains me to agree with some of your observations regarding the Chinese learning market, but why do have to be another dummy blogger with an worldview that’s unsophisticated overall? Be original — write something that shows a level of sophistication and understanding that’ll distinguish you from all the over self-important but fucking dumbass bloggers.
April 10th, 2007 at 6:29 pm
Max, I appreciate your feedback, though it would have been better without the personal attacks. I’ll address your points, though.
First of all, the this is not about you. The Taipei Times has promoted Taiwan as a Chinese learning destination to some degree or another in many articles, not just yours. Here’s a link to another article by a different reporter, and to another piece by Dan Bloom.
Secondly, I know very well that the media doesn’t create the news. It just reports it. I know that you weren’t the one making any of those idiotic claims that the CPT could replace the HSK as the world standard. I know you were just quoting others. What the media has to decide, is what is worth reporting, and what is worth quoting.
In my opinion the CPT isn’t that newsworthy. A quick mention might have been reasonable, but not a full article, including such ridiculous quotations. Not every reader is going to be as familiar with the CSL market as I am. I would hate to see some poor foreigner spend a fortune to come study here due, in part, to a belief that “the simplified Chinese characters taught by China’s language schools do not have historical roots and meanings, unlike the traditional characters taught in Taiwan.”
I can’t claim I’ve spent hours looking through their archives, but I read the China Post regularly and haven’t found them publishing these sorts of articles.