Comments on: What to do with the street signs? You decide! http://toshuo.com/2006/what-to-do-with-the-street-signs-you-decide/ Chinese, Linguistics, Science, Cultural Observations and whatever else I feel like writing about Thu, 20 Nov 2008 22:16:38 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6 By: miltownkid http://toshuo.com/2006/what-to-do-with-the-street-signs-you-decide/#comment-7843 miltownkid Mon, 02 Oct 2006 12:17:06 +0000 http://toshuo.com/2006/what-to-do-with-the-street-signs-you-decide/#comment-7843 I had to vote for pinyin without tones, because I think that'd look funny and wouldn't help. I had to vote for pinyin without tones, because I think that’d look funny and wouldn’t help.

]]> By: Thomas O'Neill http://toshuo.com/2006/what-to-do-with-the-street-signs-you-decide/#comment-7801 Thomas O'Neill Sun, 01 Oct 2006 01:39:44 +0000 http://toshuo.com/2006/what-to-do-with-the-street-signs-you-decide/#comment-7801 It's a tie in my view, though ultimately, I wouldn't be surprised if eventually someday tones were added to signs. I'm an Arabic linguist myself, and I can tell you that romanization of Arabic words is also without tone or accent. There are similar problems when trying to pronouce the Arabic word from the roman letters. A certain roman spelling can be pronounced several ways depending on the word. There are a lot of sounds in Arabic that roman syllables just can't represent. For instance, there are 2 'S' sounds, 2 'T' sounds, 2 'H' sounds, 2 'D' sounds, 2 'dh' sounds, and several throaty sounds with no English equivalent. Would tone/accent markers make it easier to pronounce for non-natives? Not really, because the sounds are pretty unique and difficult to pronounce even if you know what they are supposed to sound like. The school I learned Arabic at puts languages into catagories based on how difficult they are to learn for a non-native, and Arabic and Chinese were the top 2 most difficult non-English languages. The fact that romanization is difficult for both of them is no surpise to me. Although, Arabic doesn't really need it since Arabic script is rather easy to read and is phonetic, whereas Chinese characters are unique for each word (for the most part). It’s a tie in my view, though ultimately, I wouldn’t be surprised if eventually someday tones were added to signs. I’m an Arabic linguist myself, and I can tell you that romanization of Arabic words is also without tone or accent. There are similar problems when trying to pronouce the Arabic word from the roman letters. A certain roman spelling can be pronounced several ways depending on the word. There are a lot of sounds in Arabic that roman syllables just can’t represent. For instance, there are 2 ‘S’ sounds, 2 ‘T’ sounds, 2 ‘H’ sounds, 2 ‘D’ sounds, 2 ‘dh’ sounds, and several throaty sounds with no English equivalent. Would tone/accent markers make it easier to pronounce for non-natives? Not really, because the sounds are pretty unique and difficult to pronounce even if you know what they are supposed to sound like.

The school I learned Arabic at puts languages into catagories based on how difficult they are to learn for a non-native, and Arabic and Chinese were the top 2 most difficult non-English languages. The fact that romanization is difficult for both of them is no surpise to me. Although, Arabic doesn’t really need it since Arabic script is rather easy to read and is phonetic, whereas Chinese characters are unique for each word (for the most part).

]]> By: Tim Maddog http://toshuo.com/2006/what-to-do-with-the-street-signs-you-decide/#comment-7797 Tim Maddog Sat, 30 Sep 2006 21:30:40 +0000 http://toshuo.com/2006/what-to-do-with-the-street-signs-you-decide/#comment-7797 Being that we're not in Beijing, I'd say use the local tone usage. Isn't the point of all this for non-natives to be able to communicate with locals about local road names? Are there any streets named "Fàguó" in Taiwan? In the unlikely event that there are, I'd hope they would use the fourth tone. That's how <i>my</i> dictionary (<i>Far East Chinese-English Dictionary</i>) shows it. If you spelled "color" as "colour" back in school in Texas, wouldn't your teacher have marked it wrong? If a student in London, England spelled it as "color," they'd also get it wrong. A student in Taiwan who used the third tone for the "Fà" of "Fàguó" would also have their answer marked wrong. Being that we’re not in Beijing, I’d say use the local tone usage. Isn’t the point of all this for non-natives to be able to communicate with locals about local road names?

Are there any streets named “Fàguó” in Taiwan? In the unlikely event that there are, I’d hope they would use the fourth tone. That’s how my dictionary (Far East Chinese-English Dictionary) shows it.

If you spelled “color” as “colour” back in school in Texas, wouldn’t your teacher have marked it wrong? If a student in London, England spelled it as “color,” they’d also get it wrong.

A student in Taiwan who used the third tone for the “Fà” of “Fàguó” would also have their answer marked wrong.

]]> By: Jason S http://toshuo.com/2006/what-to-do-with-the-street-signs-you-decide/#comment-7790 Jason S Sat, 30 Sep 2006 15:37:08 +0000 http://toshuo.com/2006/what-to-do-with-the-street-signs-you-decide/#comment-7790 Wow, it's neck and neck! Wow, it’s neck and neck!

]]> By: Prince Roy’s Realm » Blog Archive » Dueling Lǎowài: Tone Marks on Road Signs Part IV http://toshuo.com/2006/what-to-do-with-the-street-signs-you-decide/#comment-7782 Prince Roy’s Realm » Blog Archive » Dueling Lǎowài: Tone Marks on Road Signs Part IV Sat, 30 Sep 2006 11:04:44 +0000 http://toshuo.com/2006/what-to-do-with-the-street-signs-you-decide/#comment-7782 [...] UPDATE: Mark has put up an interactive poll where you, the readers, can sound off about this all-important debate. Go here and vote! [...] [...] UPDATE: Mark has put up an interactive poll where you, the readers, can sound off about this all-important debate. Go here and vote! [...]

]]> By: Prince Roy http://toshuo.com/2006/what-to-do-with-the-street-signs-you-decide/#comment-7779 Prince Roy Sat, 30 Sep 2006 07:24:59 +0000 http://toshuo.com/2006/what-to-do-with-the-street-signs-you-decide/#comment-7779 I think Taiwan guóyǔ is perfectly appropriate for Taiwan, so fàguó it is. And btw, I correct myself, that should be Taiwan góyǐ. I think Taiwan guóyǔ is perfectly appropriate for Taiwan, so fàguó it is. And btw, I correct myself, that should be Taiwan góyǐ.

]]> By: Mark http://toshuo.com/2006/what-to-do-with-the-street-signs-you-decide/#comment-7777 Mark Sat, 30 Sep 2006 06:00:46 +0000 http://toshuo.com/2006/what-to-do-with-the-street-signs-you-decide/#comment-7777 <blockquote>For example, is the “fa” in “faguo (France) third or fourth tone? Do you go by popular usage or Beijing Standard or what?</blockquote> Come on. There has to be <i>something</i> left for politicians to fight over.

For example, is the “fa” in “faguo (France) third or fourth tone? Do you go by popular usage or Beijing Standard or what?

Come on. There has to be something left for politicians to fight over.

]]> By: TC http://toshuo.com/2006/what-to-do-with-the-street-signs-you-decide/#comment-7774 TC Sat, 30 Sep 2006 05:02:29 +0000 http://toshuo.com/2006/what-to-do-with-the-street-signs-you-decide/#comment-7774 I'm on the fence about the whole thing. Tones would be nice, as PR says, in a perfect world, but tones are subjective, even apart from the different accents, tones are simply a rough guide to the complexities of Mandarin Chinese pronunciation, so I wonder if the time and effort would be worth it. For example, is the "fa" in "faguo (France) third or fourth tone? Do you go by popular usage or Beijing Standard or what? I’m on the fence about the whole thing. Tones would be nice, as PR says, in a perfect world, but tones are subjective, even apart from the different accents, tones are simply a rough guide to the complexities of Mandarin Chinese pronunciation, so I wonder if the time and effort would be worth it. For example, is the “fa” in “faguo (France) third or fourth tone? Do you go by popular usage or Beijing Standard or what?

]]> By: EFL Geek http://toshuo.com/2006/what-to-do-with-the-street-signs-you-decide/#comment-7770 EFL Geek Sat, 30 Sep 2006 01:46:57 +0000 http://toshuo.com/2006/what-to-do-with-the-street-signs-you-decide/#comment-7770 interesting debate. I voted for tones even though I'm not in Taiwan and not ever likely to try to learn Chinese. interesting debate. I voted for tones even though I’m not in Taiwan and not ever likely to try to learn Chinese.

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