Comments on: The Pen Matters http://toshuo.com/2007/the-pen-matters/ Chinese, Linguistics, Science, Cultural Observations and whatever else I feel like writing about Thu, 04 Dec 2008 20:26:30 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.5 By: Darran http://toshuo.com/2007/the-pen-matters/#comment-146284 Darran Wed, 25 Jun 2008 20:24:21 +0000 http://toshuo.com/2007/the-pen-matters/#comment-146284 I lived in Taiwan for just over five years and would have stayed longer were it easier to get visas and non-teaching jobs. I started studying Chinese language and culture at a university after one year in Taiwan. I feel it is an absolute necessity to learn the host country's language and that includes reading and writing ( with a pen not a computer). One of the most gratifying times was when speaking Chinese and seeing the smile on the Taiwanese person's face. Another of my most gratifying moments is when my writing of Chinese Characters became more like writing and less like drawing. If you don't learn these things, you'll never really be a part of that country. I lived in Taiwan for just over five years and would have stayed longer were it easier to get visas and non-teaching jobs. I started studying Chinese language and culture at a university after one year in Taiwan. I feel it is an absolute necessity to learn the host country’s language and that includes reading and writing ( with a pen not a computer). One of the most gratifying times was when speaking Chinese and seeing the smile on the Taiwanese person’s face. Another of my most gratifying moments is when my writing of Chinese Characters became more like writing and less like drawing. If you don’t learn these things, you’ll never really be a part of that country.

]]> By: Sr. Mina http://toshuo.com/2007/the-pen-matters/#comment-36948 Sr. Mina Sun, 18 Mar 2007 21:27:02 +0000 http://toshuo.com/2007/the-pen-matters/#comment-36948 I am not surprised you feel the way you do. Writing has a sense of accomplishment in it. I tried learning a bit of Japanese, just to get a feel for the language in its spoken and written forms. It gave me a better appreciation for writing. Its just too hard for me to render Japanese on a keyboard and I find its slower than just writing with pen and paper. Since then, I've been researching for a more efficient way to write English. I thought Tengwar woudl be a good idea, but both Teeline and Speedwriting interest me a lot more. They're easier and there doesn't seem to be a LOT to memorise. I want a system that can be used consistently and is easier. I'm really not caring if it can be done on a computer [but it would still be nice] as I'm more into the writing aspect of it. Let's face it, I think faster than I write. That makes it hard for me to write my fiction and poems. It seems the pace of the modern world has ruined my mind that way. If I lived in a pre-computer world, maybe my mind wouldn't think this fast. I've yet to know [since I haven't learned nor practised them yet] if systems of writing for the deaf are quicker and/or easier. If anybody knows where I can find Teeline and Speedwriting fonts, I'd appreciate it. Mark, you have a LOT of respect from me. Chinese is supposed to be really difficult to learn, possibly more difficult than Japanese. I glance at Chinese and I just go all dizzy-eyed. [giggles] Its beautiful, its pretty, its artistic in many ways, but you might as well bam my head with a Chinese dictionary. I am not surprised you feel the way you do. Writing has a sense of accomplishment in it. I tried learning a bit of Japanese, just to get a feel for the language in its spoken and written forms. It gave me a better appreciation for writing. Its just too hard for me to render Japanese on a keyboard and I find its slower than just writing with pen and paper.

Since then, I’ve been researching for a more efficient way to write English. I thought Tengwar woudl be a good idea, but both Teeline and Speedwriting interest me a lot more. They’re easier and there doesn’t seem to be a LOT to memorise. I want a system that can be used consistently and is easier. I’m really not caring if it can be done on a computer [but it would still be nice] as I’m more into the writing aspect of it. Let’s face it, I think faster than I write. That makes it hard for me to write my fiction and poems. It seems the pace of the modern world has ruined my mind that way. If I lived in a pre-computer world, maybe my mind wouldn’t think this fast. I’ve yet to know [since I haven't learned nor practised them yet] if systems of writing for the deaf are quicker and/or easier. If anybody knows where I can find Teeline and Speedwriting fonts, I’d appreciate it.

Mark, you have a LOT of respect from me. Chinese is supposed to be really difficult to learn, possibly more difficult than Japanese. I glance at Chinese and I just go all dizzy-eyed. [giggles] Its beautiful, its pretty, its artistic in many ways, but you might as well bam my head with a Chinese dictionary.

]]> By: Eric http://toshuo.com/2007/the-pen-matters/#comment-23049 Eric Mon, 05 Feb 2007 05:54:19 +0000 http://toshuo.com/2007/the-pen-matters/#comment-23049 Happened to have found this site by searching the keywords "pen matters"; I am recently building a site with help of a Ducth friend about a penpal projects, it could either be ESL purpose or getting and reminding people go back to Good Old Days of pen and paper... "When was the last time that you, yourself, used pen and paper.."? This phrase is fairly good though...I shall have to use this for my AD if I may ;p anyways, writting is classical and humane.... in respect of writting Chinese, I guess it'll be easier for you guys start learning simplified Chinese rather than traditional version... but there would be problems still...since those taiwanese cannot read simplified version... 谢谢大家 Happened to have found this site by searching the keywords “pen matters”; I am recently building a site with help of a Ducth friend about a penpal projects, it could either be ESL purpose or getting and reminding people go back to Good Old Days of pen and paper…

“When was the last time that you, yourself, used pen and paper..”? This phrase is fairly good though…I shall have to use this for my AD if I may ;p

anyways, writting is classical and humane….

in respect of writting Chinese, I guess it’ll be easier for you guys start learning simplified Chinese rather than traditional version… but there would be problems still…since those taiwanese cannot read simplified version…

谢谢大家

]]> By: Mark http://toshuo.com/2007/the-pen-matters/#comment-21627 Mark Sun, 28 Jan 2007 15:45:39 +0000 http://toshuo.com/2007/the-pen-matters/#comment-21627 To clarify, I'm <i>not</i> saying that writing is as important as reading, listening or speaking. In fact, in terms of the return on one's time, I'd rank their importance in the exact opposite order. What I <i>am</i> saying, is that many people underestimate the value of writing because they can compensate for their writing deficiencies by <ol> <li>writing less often than they would if they were functional writers,</li> <li>relying on writing skills in another language such as English. </li></ol> I fully believe that the day will come when the pen is obsolete from a functional stand-point. That day may even come sooner for Chinese users than it will for users of phonetic alphabets. It hasn't come yet, though. To clarify, I’m not saying that writing is as important as reading, listening or speaking. In fact, in terms of the return on one’s time, I’d rank their importance in the exact opposite order.

What I am saying, is that many people underestimate the value of writing because they can compensate for their writing deficiencies by

  1. writing less often than they would if they were functional writers,
  2. relying on writing skills in another language such as English.

I fully believe that the day will come when the pen is obsolete from a functional stand-point. That day may even come sooner for Chinese users than it will for users of phonetic alphabets. It hasn’t come yet, though.

]]> By: trevelyan http://toshuo.com/2007/the-pen-matters/#comment-21620 trevelyan Sun, 28 Jan 2007 13:57:36 +0000 http://toshuo.com/2007/the-pen-matters/#comment-21620 "Odds are also overwhelmingly high that you didn’t go a single week in all of last year without using a pen or paper." Sure Mark. But a lot of this casual use involves writing down contact information, numbers or copying characters from a text/sign/email. I use pens every day, but can't remember the last time I've NEEDED to write something non-trivial by hand in Chinese without any reference. So while knowing HOW to write is very important, I'm not sure I'd really put the emphasis on it that you do in this post. “Odds are also overwhelmingly high that you didn’t go a single week in all of last year without using a pen or paper.”

Sure Mark. But a lot of this casual use involves writing down contact information, numbers or copying characters from a text/sign/email. I use pens every day, but can’t remember the last time I’ve NEEDED to write something non-trivial by hand in Chinese without any reference. So while knowing HOW to write is very important, I’m not sure I’d really put the emphasis on it that you do in this post.

]]> By: battlepanda http://toshuo.com/2007/the-pen-matters/#comment-21400 battlepanda Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:01:42 +0000 http://toshuo.com/2007/the-pen-matters/#comment-21400 Of course, I think it's great that you're trying to learn characters. My notes are actually peppered with chinese characters even though they slow me down because I'm trying to practice...but I think that those who read and speak chinese well but relies on a computer to type should be considered pretty darn functional in Chinese too unless you have a conception of 'functional' that's pretty darn pendantic. Of course, I think it’s great that you’re trying to learn characters. My notes are actually peppered with chinese characters even though they slow me down because I’m trying to practice…but I think that those who read and speak chinese well but relies on a computer to type should be considered pretty darn functional in Chinese too unless you have a conception of ‘functional’ that’s pretty darn pendantic.

]]> By: battlepanda http://toshuo.com/2007/the-pen-matters/#comment-21396 battlepanda Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:56:52 +0000 http://toshuo.com/2007/the-pen-matters/#comment-21396 Well, doing my job does require a whole bunch of word processing in Chinese actually -- I will not be able to get by at all without the ability to send email to people in chinese, write the names of people, laws and places in Chinese, doing searches in Chinese etc. etc., even though the writing is in English. The point is, with prevalence the computer, I can get away with not knowing how to write Chinese properly and still do my job prperly in a way I would not have been able to otherwise. I suspect that is true for a lot of other people too. Well, doing my job does require a whole bunch of word processing in Chinese actually — I will not be able to get by at all without the ability to send email to people in chinese, write the names of people, laws and places in Chinese, doing searches in Chinese etc. etc., even though the writing is in English.

The point is, with prevalence the computer, I can get away with not knowing how to write Chinese properly and still do my job prperly in a way I would not have been able to otherwise. I suspect that is true for a lot of other people too.

]]> By: LJD http://toshuo.com/2007/the-pen-matters/#comment-21391 LJD Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:30:53 +0000 http://toshuo.com/2007/the-pen-matters/#comment-21391 Nice post, this is an issue that I think about (agonize about) almost every day. I HOPE that being able to write Chinese on a computer is good enough, but I suspect that at the highest level (associating with literature professors etc.) not being able to write characters would be an embarassment. But still I really doubt that I'm diligent enough to learn to write by hand. Nice post, this is an issue that I think about (agonize about) almost every day. I HOPE that being able to write Chinese on a computer is good enough, but I suspect that at the highest level (associating with literature professors etc.) not being able to write characters would be an embarassment. But still I really doubt that I’m diligent enough to learn to write by hand.

]]> By: Mark http://toshuo.com/2007/the-pen-matters/#comment-21361 Mark Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:04:02 +0000 http://toshuo.com/2007/the-pen-matters/#comment-21361 <blockquote>I think I’d rather use the time to study a english based shorthand system like Teeline when it comes to helping my work.</blockquote> Your work is writing English. It probably calls for even less Chinese writing than mine does. I still have to write the occasional note for the secretary or a few key words on here and there on the whiteboard for the low level classes. I guess I'm pretty unusual in having the desire to wean myself off of using English as a crutch. Still, my hope is to study in a completely Chinese environment when I go to grad school, someday. Hopefully, I can work in a Chinese environment at some point after that.

I think I’d rather use the time to study a english based shorthand system like Teeline when it comes to helping my work.

Your work is writing English. It probably calls for even less Chinese writing than mine does. I still have to write the occasional note for the secretary or a few key words on here and there on the whiteboard for the low level classes.

I guess I’m pretty unusual in having the desire to wean myself off of using English as a crutch. Still, my hope is to study in a completely Chinese environment when I go to grad school, someday. Hopefully, I can work in a Chinese environment at some point after that.

]]> By: battlepanda http://toshuo.com/2007/the-pen-matters/#comment-21355 battlepanda Fri, 26 Jan 2007 08:25:50 +0000 http://toshuo.com/2007/the-pen-matters/#comment-21355 I use pen and paper every day...mostly pinyin and english though. Even if my Chinese is good enough to take notes in chinese, it'll be too slow for me. Developing the ability to write chinese quickly and legibly is a whole nother difficult hurdle...I think I'd rather use the time to study a english based shorthand system like Teeline when it comes to helping my work. I think most people who make the argument that they don't need to learn how to write chinese because they can type are not saying that they never use pen and paper, but that they use pen and paper for the kind of notetaking they don't find rewarding to do in Chinese in a way that they find using chinese in conversation or reading rewarding! I use pen and paper every day…mostly pinyin and english though. Even if my Chinese is good enough to take notes in chinese, it’ll be too slow for me. Developing the ability to write chinese quickly and legibly is a whole nother difficult hurdle…I think I’d rather use the time to study a english based shorthand system like Teeline when it comes to helping my work. I think most people who make the argument that they don’t need to learn how to write chinese because they can type are not saying that they never use pen and paper, but that they use pen and paper for the kind of notetaking they don’t find rewarding to do in Chinese in a way that they find using chinese in conversation or reading rewarding!

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